Just the other day I responded to a video that Ranch Chimp had posted about a victim that prayed with a bank robber. I made the sarcastic remark that this would be touted as a "miracle" by the fundamentalist Christian set. Lo & behold this morning I received an e-mail from one of the Christians in my family that enjoy forwarding these types of things as heartwarming proofs of the existence of God. They forwarded the same video that ranch chimp had posted on his site.
The thing was, I had watched a documentary titled Invisible Children this morning before I received the offending e-mail. Generally, I find the drivel Christians send me just stupid or silly & don't respond, but the documentary was still fresh in my mind, so I fired off an e-mail to the Christian person along with a link to the documentary film, asking them where is proof of God when all of this horror & crime against innocent children is going on?
My religious relative e-mailed me back the typical answer " God allows these things so humans will turn to him & therefore experience Gods ultimate salvation, etc... i.e. suffering is for our own good. Blah, blah, blah."
I'm not going to engage in a debate about it, because the fundamentalists argument is always contingent on belief in the bible, Christian principals & their own denominational precepts. Although, one pertinent point argued was... Christian groups are involved in a lions share of the charity organizations that involve themselves in helping with these situations. I gather the implication is that Christians show the true compassion of God, or something like that. That is interesting to think about...in a historical sense and how the pendulum is actually swinging in modernity. I wonder how true that actually is?
posted by Rita @ 2:36 PM
17 Comments
17 Comments:
Doing charity can be complicated because doing what's right or good depends on your objective. Flipping a couple of bucks to a ramp-rat is knee-jerk charity where the ultimate goal may be ease your guilt about wanting to murder your boss by giving to a stranger. Good thing you didn't engage the Fundies, they are usually quite comfortable with their delusions - the world is simpler that way so they don't worry about all the lousy crap that can and does happen in life. They would rather not see the car that hits them.
The other day when walking to my car(actually one of my daughter's car's)I noticed a man fixin to put a pamphlet under the wiper blade's of the windshield...he was going car to car in a large parking lot. I yelled to him and said "Hey Man ... that's my ride...dont put nothing on the windshield.." He come's over to me and said..."Here...I'll just give it to you..." I asked if it was religion? I knew right there it was...because instead of a direct answer...he started to talk about the content's as the economy,joblessness,poverty...etc. I said..."No Man...I can get that shit on CNN ... save it ...I dont give a fuck about it..." He started rattling some more,cause I just stood there to enjoy a smoke before I got in the car.He asked the usual...you know...about God giving his only begotten son (why is it alway's"begotten"?),and loving me etc,etc...you know the talk, seen one,seen em all stuff. I asked him if he was christian? (Duuuuh), he said he dont have a religion cause he is into Jesus Christ, and asked if I was religious? I said no. Then he asked if I was an aetheist? I told him no. So I decided to ask him ... if he believed the Earth was about 6000 year's old? (since I have discussed this age thing with folk's like Mr.Infidel, cause Infidel commented that they think the earth is about 6000 year's old) He smiled...and said.."No...heh,heh,heh...I dont" I then told him.."So you believe in evolution?" ...now get this Ms.Rita ... heh,heh,heh,heh,heh ... he then said ..."No ...I'm a creationist" I then said ..."But you DONT think the earth is 6000 years's old?" he then said..."No...it's actually closer to 7000 year's old" I just busted out laughing... I just knew this SOB would have some line like that! :) I just had to ask Dear,I wanted to hear it from one of their own lip's. :)
I donate blood. Charity is but one way to help the better Humanity though. The unsung heros for quality of life is actually the guys like Bill Gates (see here for latest project) who not only donate large sums of money to charities as the Christians like to brag about, but Bill Gates betters the world through technological innovation and business. Although I didn't want to make this about Bill Gates in particular, companies like Microsoft is just merely one of millions of examples of ways that quality of human life gets better.
Actually, anybody who contributes to the success of society is doing their part. I would also like to argue that Christians do more harm than good with their charities. The Christian's main focus is not helping other people, but more to the point is they are just taking advantage of the unfortunate in order to win conversions for the cause of the Church. That harms Humanity because the Church spreads ignorance and mediocrity, it saps people of their minds and zombifies them, but their main goal is certainly not to help people get back on their own two feet though.
I wanted to add here that I did watch the video. This is actually a dream come true for those die-hard christian's...they love misery above anything else.Perferct example is the email response that you got from your relative/kin about what God does and for what reason's,etc.Trying to debate or even understand these are pointless...their mind's are already set.I know many that believe in God...have many familia that believe in God ...they dont go to church or most of what these type's do or care to talk about religion generally. I wouldnt socialize with those who are fundamentalist's...even if they were familia...I just dont have anything to do with people like that.Or even try to debate or to get to understand why they think the way they do,but if they want advice ... sure...I will give it.We all create our own realities...or have other's do it for us. As far as the problem's in the Sudan or wherever ... perhap's these fundamentalist's can go over there and help...that way they can bathe in all the misery...cryin...help...hug's ...kisses, love em, or anything else their little heart's desire.The young man toward's the end of the video...who was one of the American men who made the video said that we think this cant happen in America? Believe me...it can happen anywhere's. Now ...if there was a God(I know you dont believe in God) my word's to God would be ..."Look and rejoice oh great one... look at your children, your creation...swim in it ... and love it ...just dont expect all of us too" But..the situation in many of these countries around the globe...I would not interfere in...or run to help, or do anything but stay away from them ... that's god and the christian's job...isnt it? ... surely they dont want all of us to swim in this cesspool? As far as folk's like myself going to Hell, well ... that is even more reason for them to avoid me...and not try to save me, rescue me, or try to love me ... after all...we cant all be loved and cherished and live in paradise ... heh? My question to them would be ... What is wrong with Hell? Or even ... what is wrong with the Demonic World? Or...What is wrong with Satanas? They couldnt give any reasonable answer...because they never had any respect for Satan...mentally they are on a one way street ... they only see good/evil,black/white, nothing else. And anything that opposes their thought's are automatically labeled as "evil"...or the enemy. They not only deny the flesh, but they choose to stay in misery. heh,heh,heh,heh,heh ... they absolutely love it ... what can I say. :)
Thank You Ms.Rita....
Correction...I said Sudan in my last comment's ...I meant to say Uganda.
" God allows these things so humans will turn to him & therefore experience Gods ultimate salvation, etc... i.e. suffering is for our own good. Blah, blah, blah."
This is even more lame than arguing that evil exists to provide the "greater good" of free will. At least that argument carefully keeps God beyond the responsibility for actually committing evil. The argument above amounts to turning to God by means of the Stockholm Syndrome.
You’re right not to argue with the Fundies, their brains are so full of contradictions and rationalizations (excuses) for same that they are completely gridlocked.
rev
Yes, I suppose it is easier to just lay it all on God then actually look for a logical & rational answer. My coworkers & family know I'm an Atheist. It's interesting how they sometimes choose their words around me when they bring up their supernatural crapola. I don't have to say anything because they know how I feel about "divine intervention". The mere presence of an unbeliever requires them to at least give some thought to what they are saying. Sometimes they'll say unprompted stuff to me like, "Well, I know you think this is all a coincidence, but I believe there is a supernatural force behind it."
Generally, I just raise my eyebrows & shrug at that point, because their statement shows they've already considered the rational option & rejected it.
ranch chimp
I've seen it all my life but it is still amazing to me how effective religious brainwashing is, to have the ability to make people believe & do the craziest things. Now that is power!
qf
Actually, anybody who contributes to the success of society is doing their part.
I agree. I am glad that there are people with compassion that are trying to make the world a better place. I also agree that the main goal of the Church is not charity as we see it. Perhaps the motivation of winning conversions to the cause, is the reason churches involve themselves in more charitable causes. Is that necessarily a bad thing in the long run? Certainly not for the person being helped.
There are many organizations that are not Christian or religious based that do all the things Christian charities do as you point out, without spreading ignorance & mediocrity. On the other hand religious organizations have also worked toward raising standards of literacy in 3rd world countries. Like you I tend to believe the harm far outweighs the good. But, until others are willing to step in the gap or come up with a better solution...
ranch chimp
One thing that us secular humanists understand is that misery, cruelty & ignorance can happen anywhere to saints & sinners alike, considering the fact that there is no such distinction. :)
Stockholm syndrome ! Ha...I could point that out to my religious relatives, but they wouldn't understand it, anyway. *sigh* :p
Actually, I never considered thinking about their rational in that vein...Come to think of it most of these people see themselves as helpless victims w/no power of their own. They do believe they(human beings) are bad & deserving of suffering.
How about donating all the used older edition textbooks to foriegn countries that don't have internet?
If "God" allows human suffering just in order to pump up his ego by increasing his flock of sheep, then he's either a very sick, perhaps psychopathic, deity or he just has a very sick sense of humour.
I love this little gem of Christian superstition:
John 5:4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and stirred the water: whosoever then first after the stirring of the water stepped in was cured of whatever disease he had.
zardoz
Well we know that these twisted ideas come from the minds of human beings. Perhaps, the superstitious, & scientifically backward folks of ancient times can be excused for believing this nonsense...but there isn't much excuse for it now.
qf If I were still a born again Christian I could make a case for baptism from that verse.
Logically, there is no excuse for believing in "God" and all the rest of the nonsensical baggage that religion carries with it, but since when did logic play a role in religion? As long as people are willing to surrender their rationality and their free will to another human being, religion will continue.
Rita, I could probably make a case for a hot-tub massage parlor from that verse.
QF
Haha! :)
Hi Rita, Thanks for visiting my blog a few weeks ago. I was on hiatus for a few weeks while taking care of other things in my life.
I liked this post. I recently read an article about how people will cling to long-held beliefs no matter what evidence is presented to refute them, and in fact, they will believe them even more than they did before the contrary evidence was presented. And, you are correct, they will come up with some lame religious excuse for everything. So, I don't even try to engage religious people in conversations about their beliefs. I consider it a waste of good air and time.
I will debate & dialogue with fundamentalists anyone else to gain an understanding of how their minds work or if if it helps me propel forward in my own thinking, but as you say there are those people who, will cling to long-held beliefs no matter what evidence is presented to refute them There really is no point in wasting ones breath with them.
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