Blogger Atheist revolution wrote this opinion on a news story about one small town dealing with the issue of separation of Church & State. As an Atheist & one interested in city government having involved myself in local government & having attended many council meetings, I found a newspaper article on the city council meeting in Newton, New Jersey, where they addressed their 60-year practice of illegally opening Public meetings with a Christian prayer. The city attorney gave his judgment that the prayer was illegal, therefore they could not win a court battle & the council agreed to stop the practice.
I found one thing very telling. Apparently the council meeting was attended by almost 40 people, with 16 citizens standing up to voice their support for continuing the prayer. After they had their say about the prayer issue, they all left! The Herald article concludes with this:
"By the time the council came to discuss the amount of money the town is trying to save through water conservation and a stronger program of searching for leaks, there were just four people in the audience."
From my experience, city council meetings are notoriously under attended. I suppose because they deal mostly with ordinances, resolutions. budgets & other boring topics. Forty people attending a council meeting in a small town is a crowd, believe me. What I found telling & rather sad, is that these people were passionate enough about a silly prayer, to attend a city council meeting but apparently uninterested in involving themselves in something down to earth & practical like water conservation & saving the town money, that could bring about positive changes .
The truth is, if a person wants to affect any changes in their community, involvement in local government is a must. From the point of view of council members, lack of citizen participation simply means the public doesn't care.
posted by Rita @ 7:30 AM
30 Comments
30 Comments:
We care...
...about it after the fact if the people we elected to council screw it up.
A small town [in the USA] is taking up the issue of Christian prayer before meetings. Kudos !
I like to point out here that your President took oath on a BIBLE. Where is the separation of state and church/religions in your country ? Why does every politician (including the President) says "God Bless America" in their speeches ?
In France, if Sarkozy took oath on a bible, that would made a big issue and people {from his own party} would've gone to streets, at least a dozen books would be published within a month on that topic and all TV channels and print media will have debates on 'secularity'.
Actually, there was an interesting wrinkle this time. When Obama was sworn in at the inauguration (with a Bible), the Chief Justice mixed up the words of the oath. Because there was some concern that this might make the oath of office invalid, he and Obama later held a brief private ceremony in which the oath was administered with the correct wording. If I remember the news report correctly, no Bible was used.
As for the problem of lack of participation in local politics, it's a perennial problem in the US where people tend to be busy and have more activities than they have time for. National politics is where the real power and charisma lie; local issues have trouble attracting attention, and some local officeholders prefer it that way, since they can pursue their own agendas unbothered by the public.
This means, of course, that small groups of fanatics can hijack local bodies because they're the only ones who are interested -- as, for example, creationists have taken over school boards in many places because no one else was interested enough to oppose them, or even knew what was going on until they started screwing up the science curriculum.
G3T In my small town elected city councilmembers don't get paid, but it is a four year commitment, anyway. I tend to cut them some slack for this, except if I feel like they have an agenda that is not in my best interest, of course. Like as infidel points out below, hijacking the council to pursue a religious goal.
Prash As the U.S. is predominately Christian, there will always be some pandering to that large segment of society. Minor issues like whether or not the president goes to church, prays, etc...are big deals to them.
infidel You hit it on the head as usual. :)
Remember the town of Antelope & the followers of Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh?
Not quite the same as creationists taking over local politics, but an interesting set of circumstances.
More then one of the political tactics they used are quite legitimate & effective.
I'd just bring a rug inta the council chamber and start pray'n to Allah. I'm sure they would stop the Lords Prayer if you had'ta stop and pray during every issue.
"I must stop and look for guidance from the great Allah....Allah be praised"...
I Pray to Allah
I pray to Allah in the Heavens above, I pray to Allah asking Him for His love.
I pray to Allah to keep me safe and warm, I pray to Allah to keep me away from harm.
I pray to Allah to keep my family safe, I pray to Allah to keep us all in His embrace.
I pray to Allah so that I have no fear, I pray to Allah for all that I hold dear.
I pray to Allah for me and for you, I pray to Allah that He forgives the wrong that we do.
I pray to Allah in the Heavens above, I pray to Allah asking Him for His love.
rub-a-dub-dub thanx fer da grub, ya Allah!
wallycrawler I would like to see people have more confidence in their own human abilities. That is the only way we will ever shake off the curse of religion.
tasty Geeez! you could warn people about your X-rated blog!!
Watching the community cable channel broadcast of city council is like watching paste dry.
I learned that Obamas father was Muslim turned Atheist and his family not religious - in other words they were normal.
Prash, I blame all this mumbo jumbo inb our goverment on religiosity creep. Just like when your doctor keeps prescribing additional medications every time you are sick and you end up taking too many. 150 years ago our presidents didn't take sacred oaths, there was no god on our money, no invocations at our inaugurations and no faith base agencies. They implement them when there is a crisis and then are afraid to take them away. We practically live in a theocracy now.
ya democracy :P
Remember the town of Antelope & the followers of Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh?
Indeed. As Christopher Hitches said, Antelope probably narrowly missed becoming as famous as Jonestown, Guyana.
If any small town around here wants to open its meetings with religious involations, I know some good Satanist ones. They can't discriminate, right?
tasty Geeez! you could warn people about your X-rated blog!!
That's sort of like trying to scare ants away from a picnic by pouring sugar on the ground.
Greeting's Ms.Rita!
An interesting post and comment's.
I live in Texas... so I heard the prayer's and talk ..well.. all my life. I am not against anyone praying,never was. Nor against the President swearing on the bible. I read the bible,and quran myself,it never had no effect on me. If I was in a small town and they prayed before a meeting,scratched their crotch,or wore rag's on their head...it doesnt frighten me,disturb me,or make me tremble,or angry,knock yourselves out. Get in my face with it, well that's different,I'll shove their bible up their ass,and my fist down their throat. As far as this nonsense about does a spritual world,angel's,god's,saint's exist?
Frankly...I dont give a damn if they did or not...I never found one reason to make me believe that I should believe any nonsense created in the mind of someone else.Especially some pandering wimpy jello headed BS like that. Say if there was a "god"...what the hell difference would it make? They say"He created the heaven's"? We should bow? Bow yourselves,kiss ass,tremble likes the pansies you are. I run shit here...not god!! If this god existed...it is a pathetic example of incompetence,
worthlessness,and weakness..I mean this SOB loves people and cant stop a hurricane that it supposedly created the element's for it to exist? To me, anyone praying to these spirit's to fix the mistakes they made...are wimp's. Do they exist? I dont care one way or another if spirit's exist...I know they dont run a damn thing on earth if they did. I do know that arrogant religious folk's do exist though, start giving me too much of their christ crap, they will find my foot knee deep in their ass. Other than that
...go ahead and pray on! :)
By the way...these liberal aetheist's on the left are just as much pansies as christian's, anyone that get's their panties in a bind over such nonsense is "weak"
and as far as council meeting's, well I'm a easonable man...if you all feel better or can do more goddamn work by saying a prayer, get to praying...but make it quick
we got work to do,when your done with this god character...get your asses to work!
I'll shove their bible up their ass,and my fist down their throat.
Just be careful you don't get carried away and do it the other way round.
It does matter when high profile people in our society exhibit religiosity because it influences important decisions that matter to the well being of this country. Look what just happened in the last 8 years - the Bush administration relied on religion and fear to sway the public to their agenda all the while pushing scientists out of the way. The result is pollution, economic disaster, unwanted offspring, and greater economic disparity. Science is what makes our country function not religion. Problems require a rational and systematic approach for solution. All the praying and god bless americas won't create jobs or build bridges. It no good to sit back and be passive while the folks we elect give credence to superstition over reason.
rev I think 150 years ago most people had different concepts about religion, I mean, religious influence had a larger part in controlling peoples lives. Concepts like our modern definition of separation of church & state was in it's infancy. This wikipedia article on "separation of Church & State" say's the phrase was coined by Thomas Jefferson in 1805. I might be wrong, but I don't think our modern concept of separation of Church & State had been adopted by any western country before then. In any case, as a whole the modern concept of separation of Church & State was not implemented before that time.
You talk about religiosity creep & say We practically live in a theocracy now.
I would argue that in actuality we always have. The Supreme court has decided we have a constitutional guarantee of separation of church & state & what is legal. But, if you check this out, the tests to determine constitutionality are fairly recent.
I guess what I'm saying is I don't think we are turning into a theocracy I think that what has always been going on since the beginning is being challenged. This case in point, these people had been breaking the law for 60 years! Only when it was challenged did they stop.
ranch chimp By the way...these liberal aetheist's on the left are just as much pansies as christian's, anyone that get's their panties in a bind over such nonsense is "weak"
Being an atheist liberal myself, I disagree. Like Rev.Barking Nonsequitur I don't think it's something to ignore. I think enforcing the law where separation of Church & State is concerned is very important. The Supreme court has established that the separation of church and state is a Constitutional guarantee & for a good reason. It's a large part of what makes our brand of liberal democracy work. History shows that when religion is not kept under control, I mean it gets a free ride, or accumulates too much power, it is to the detriment of society. Our forefathers realized this & the Supreme court relized this. & as some commentators have pointed out, these smug God loving Americans that want to pray at public meetings would have a fit if another religion were represented. Not allowing it at all is the fair way.
infidel That I would like to see. :) I wouldn't want to be the satanist trying it.
We atheists are fond of quoting the reports that say that atheists are the most despised minority. I don't think satanists were included in that study, though.
The public always cares about the policies and laws that govern their lives.
Perhaps there should be more of an outreach for the public to get involved in local politics. Does the public ever even get invitations or updates about the things that affect them? Is there even an orchestrated effort to get their input on local matters when they come up?
qf City council meetings are open to the public & meeting times & agendas must be posted in a public place so many hrs. ahead of the meetings.
You say that, "The public always cares about the policies and laws that govern their lives" I'll grant that but sometimes it is after the fact, when it is too late. Why? Because the public too often does not get involved or pay attention until it is too late.Until a policy or law affects them in a negative way.
Our democratic system of government is set up for citizen participation. It works better that way.
I think that any registered citizen non-participation in the voting proces should count as an automatic "No-vote" on any bill that proposes to raise taxes.
"Religiosity creep" is a good term for the problem -- not so much mere "displays of religiosity" by people in power (they're as entitled to their beliefs as anyone else is) but erosion of the separation of church and state by things like invocational prayers and religious mottos on the currency. Those things are symbolic, but they do matter. Their purpose is to wear down institutional resistance to religious influence by salami tactics, in the hope that more serious religious intrusions into government can be pushed later.
QF: I think that any registered citizen non-participation in the voting proces should count as an automatic "No-vote" on any bill that proposes to raise taxes.
Oregon already has this policy; it was enacted by referendum years ago. Quite a few tax-increase measures which would otherwise have passed have been defeated because of it.
Hmmm... maybe I'll start attenting my city council meetings. I guess first I'll need to find out where and when they are.
Ms.Rita...I understand your point about working to keep the seperation of church and state. And if you ACTUALLY work on that more power to you...many I see dont work on it...dont do nothing but whine about it on these blog's or in zines...hell...alot of them dont even "vote" that I talked to over the year's. I have alway's said...that I think our government should restrict religion much more in this nation...slack up on tax incentives too...why do I call it an "incentive" instead of a "extempt"? Because we have organized religion set up in this nation as a goddamn business...and putting them in a position or power to lobby. My neighbor for instance that just say's a prayer before eating doesnt do a damn thing of harm...or a poor kid that want's to read a bible during recess. The churches of a small working class community, with small function's doesnt harm me. We put people like the pope of the Vatican,bishop's,cardinal's etc. especially these mega evangelist's in very high power position's...and give them a free tax ride to simply preach and hand out a few loaves of bread to the hungry(no wonder they love poverty!) My objective...is to plant the seed in the mind of the small individual...the seed that makes one question and think..and see these leader's and institution's for what they are and what they do. I am not out to stop one from praying,or having faith in anything...you see...they are directed by these leader's as to "what" god is...and it's purpose.Once they loose faith in tose guru's...they can see the reality of the world. As far as these tax break's and position's of notoriety...I wouldnt give them a damn vouchure for a damn "happy meal"...or even a boy scout plaque! Our system...encourages these people to become preacher's and milk the mind's of the masses by keeping them stupid.
As far as the satanist's are concerned...I never did like most of them SOB's anyway'z..at least the ones that I met!(which are many)
Thank You Ma'am.
Ranch Chimp - don't underestimate the value of blogging because this is genuine publishing - it is accessible to the entire world and sometimes having a voice can make a difference in changing public opinion - lest we forget that you can disagree with righteous a-holes that are always trying to control the choices we have. This is the best way to find others that share your viewpoint so that you have a change at forming a collective voice.
RBN -- Yes indeed, it's startling what a variety of people one can encounter via the blogosphere.
It's important to note, by the way, that even though the religionists are trying to use these symbolic issues to advance their cause via salami tactics as I mentioned, on the big issues, they're losing. Consider the two issues the Christian Right is most obsessed with: homosexuality and abortion. A few decades ago homosexuality was illegal all over the country; by the beginning of this century that was true only in a dozen or so states; in 2003 the Supreme Court swept away even those laws; and now two states allow gay marriage. This progress happened because people got involved and worked for what was right, instead of just giving up because the Christian Right looked too formidable. As for abortion, here's a fine whine to savor.
We're winning, they're losing. It took work and it will take more work, but we're getting there.
Thank You for your comment/opinion
Rev.Barking Nonsequitur. For me
it was more enlightening and inspiring than just an opinion. It was simple...to the point...and show's me I didnt look at the whole picture and was just too quick to jump and rant, you are correct Sir....thanx....
Oh yeah, I like the sound of that Infedel753, I "publish a worldwide blog".
Weighing in with my two cents.
Religion has been insinuating itself wherever a crowd can be found for as long as there has been religion. The same can be said for pickpockets. Religious leaders have always represented themselves as power brokers and exerted influence on government, at least since the time of the Pharaohs. To some degree, the checks and balances of governments like the British and US model are an attempt to secularize the balancing forces seen between Emperors and Clergy in ancient times.
In part, I think the religious folk battle over these barely-relevant issues because they feel their influence slipping away and are desperate for every crumb they have left. Their tax-exempt status is riding on it.
I second what Rev. Barking Nonsequitur said. I might not have a huge following, but the more voices providing a counterpoint to the incessant religious commercial the better. Somebody has to do it!
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